Remember to treat everyone with dignity and respect.
- The movie argues that romantic love could withstand quite profound changes in personal qualities - what do you think about that?
- What do you think about the relationship between love and sex implied by the movie?
- What else did you find particularly interesting about the concept of love raised by the movie?
1. I do think romantic love could and can withstand profound changes in personal qualities. This is case by case of course. Most would not be willing to stay in such a relationship. Ideas around attraction and social acceptability would force the end of the relationship for most.
ReplyDelete2. They are different and love is a more central theme in the movie. Sex is secondary to Love in the film. The film also suggest that sex is not as important as you become older.
3. I Liked that love was more powerful then social, religious,and family presures. I liked that they were willing to make their own rules about their relationship they ignored what was acceptable to others. Michael Grubb
1)The movie really does prove that. Even though Roy was slowly "transforming" into a woman, his wife still loved him. Yes she was hurt and some what disgusted, but Roy was still Roy. Even if he changed his name,sex,and appearance in the inside he was still the same person his wife fell in love with. The love that Ruth had for Roy is way beyond romantic love, I guess you could say "agape love".
ReplyDelete2)...sex becomes something special when there is love between the couple. And in some way Ruth hints that the only time they actually had sex was for reproduction.
3)When its true love, it doesn't change. As the time goes buy it grows stronger. When you truly love a person you accept them for who they really are. (Mel. Espino)
Thanks for getting us started! Michael, what you say sounds right to me, at least, that many couples would have a very hard time maintaining a relationship of eros under that kind of change. I'm interested in why we think that's so - what is it about sex in all its meanings that makes it a uniquely challenging change?
ReplyDeleteMel also suggests that the length of the relationship plays a big part on multiple levels in keeping the relationship strong through this change. That's a good point, and a good one to elaborate on further.
Excellent points so far, thanks M&M.
p.s. Irma is Roy's wife - Ruth is the new name Roy is choosing. :-)
1.) Yes, its true because people that have known eachother for a long time know about eachother's personal secrets and inner most thoughts. But if she genuinely loves him and no matter what they go through together in life they will remain close because there's a genuine caring and understanding of eachothers emotions, and the partner accepts them no matter what, an example of Agape love, loving someone no matter what.
ReplyDelete2.) According to the movie it is saying that love and sex are not a condition of they're relationship. They're love was based more on companionship and friendship and genuine caring, not sex.
3.) Just that there are no rules when it comes to love. You accept that person for who they are, no matter what people regard as being normal. If you have that genuine closeness and caring for one another, your relationship will be able to withstand anything and have longevity.
1.) The movie really points out a great argument that love can overcome the changes in personal qaulities. When you spend 25 years of your life with someone it would be devastating to leave that person. Which proved Irma's unconditional love for Roy. She didn't take it to well the first time but she came around and supported Roy whom she loved dearly and possibly couldn't see herself being without him.
ReplyDelete2.) The movie showed that sex wasn't that important to Roy but he would give Irma the option to have sexual relations with another man if she'd pleased, because of the changes he was going through to complete himself as a female. It wouldn't have mattered to him because he loved her very much and Irma herself looked really guilty to me with her time with Roy's boss.
3.) Something that was really intresting to me was Ray, Roy's son. He was really upset about his fathers operation and i couldn't imagined how tough that would be for me, but the love he had for his father changed all of that and Ray as well supported his father. Also in the beginning when Roy wore earrings to work and got into a scuffle with one of the guys at work one of his friend helped him but walked away as if he was ashamed. That showed to me he still had love for Roy.
1.)I believe that if the love that you have with someone is "True Love" then you will be able to take on any obsticle life brings into your relationship. When you get married you are one, the vows that a couple speaks out are supposed to be promise to one another that through sickness and in health you will stick by there side. Irma deffinatley stood by her words even though everyone thought Roy was sick and needed help she stuck by his side and the love she had for him was unconditionally.
ReplyDelete2.) It showed that sex wasnt really important to the couple that as long as they were happy and in love that is what really matters. Sex is a bond that you have with someone to express a feeling but love comes behind it if the bond is deeper. Irma still wanted to kiss, have his touch and have sex with Roy even though he was this different person because she "LOVED" him.
3.) I liked how the movie really demonstrated the true meaning of love, that it is unconditional. Reguardless if the person changes into someone you are not familar with, you have a connection with that person in the inside and out. A bond that you and no one else have something that nothing or no one can break apart. When everyone else gave up on Roy Irma was still there right by his side rubbing off everything that her pastor, family, and friends had to say about him. She still loved him no matter what. To me that is Love.
1) I think that love can withstand many things, including changes in personal qualities, but it all depends on the person.If someone got with the person for a specific quality and that person loses it and their partner chooses to leave because they feel that they can get that quality from another person, they'll leave.But that doesn't seem to be real love because love will get past many hardships.
ReplyDelete2)In the movie, from my understanding, love and sex are two different areas. Love is primary and that's what kept Roy and Irma together. Sex was secondary and even though it was a part of their relationship,Roy's changes weren't enough to separate them because they could find other ways to connect.
3) In some way their love reminded me of Agape. Irma seemed to love Roy not his actions. She stuck by his side regardless of how others reacted.They had a good friendship as a couple.
1. I do believe that romantic love can survive very large changes but i do not find it to be very common. Any love can be romantic but in the end when a drastic change in a lifestyle is made, it depends on how well you communicated, trusted and loved your significant other that shows how well the relationship will fare.
ReplyDelete2. According to the movie sex is not a basis for love. Irma and Roy love was more than just sex, it was something much more deep.
3. I found it interesting that Irma and Roy's love had not changed even after such a life altering decision was made. I guess it just shows how strong of a bond they shared with eachother
Kevin Heffley
1. I believe that romantic love is what two people find in each other that binds them together. Changes in personal qualities usually would not have an effect on the core person that one is connected to. I believe that is why it is so strong.
ReplyDelete2. I think the movie is trying to portray a message that love and sex dont mean the same thing. The film depicts that sex is only one way of expressing a deep love, among the many others and that romantic passionate relationships between two lovers can still exist without it.
3. I liked the way the movie expressed how the children of a parent going through this "change" were effected, and how they reacted to all of the changes in thier life. It was very interesting to see how the oldest son handled the issue and how things had turned out.
(Nathan Heffley)
1. I believe that love should be able to withstand changes in your life and because of the struggles you face your love will grow stronger. Now we aren't presented with the past struggles of Irma and Roy, but I'm sure that this isn't the first time they may have had a fight. They must have been through a lot for Irma to still be in love with Roy, but I think that the Euros love starts to get lost and their relationship becomes more of an "Agape" type of Love.
ReplyDelete2.Sex wasn't necessarily important to these two because if it was then they would have easily split up. I guess that as you get older that sex doesn't really become important anymore, compared the time spent with your partner.
3. I just find it interesting that Irma decided to stay with Roy and was not influenced by what anybody said and was lead by her heart, and not by her ears. Just goes to show that love makes you do crazy things.
1. I do think that love can withstand profound changes in personal qualities but only to a certain extinct. In the case of Irma and Roy I believe there would be a select few to stay in the relationship because they would feel betrayed and led on.
ReplyDelete2. I think that sex and love differs from Irma and Roy in the beginning. I think Irma needs sex to express her love to Roy, while
Roy doesn't necessarily need sex because he can express his love in different ways. By the end of the movie Irma's love evolves and she learns to express her love for Roy by comforting and helping him with his transformation into becoming a woman.
3. I find that love would make you do anything, even if you don't totally agree with the decision being made.
Michael Brown
1.Romantic love can most certainly withstand this type of change in an individual. When we fall inlove we fall inlove with the individual as a person, for the way they make us feel, and simply because they change their gender doesn't mean they change their personality. It is very difficult for the other person involved in the relationship to be able to stand by their partner, it takes a strong individual to do so and pure love indefinately.
ReplyDelete2. It is not necessary to have to sex to be in love. Roy wanted his wife to be happy and allowed her to have physical relations to fill the void in her life he had now made. It seemed as though she could not allow herself to enjoy it because sex should be an expression for the love of two individuals and that was not the case with her and the Roy's boss. It was not necessary for Roy and Irma to have intercourse to still love eachother.
3.It was a very interesting moving and definately shows how love can be tested in heights that one may never ponder. Love comes in many different forms. It truly goes to show that "love is patient, it is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always preserves."
So I forgot about the questions, but I agree with what pretty much everyone said. Love was not based on sex in the movie. Irma cared enough about Roy to not care whether they would ever have sex again. It hurt her, but once she realized that the change was something Roy needed to do she excepted it. The movie showed how there are no boundaries to love and there shouldn't be. If you love someone whether woman and woman, man and man or in this case woman and confused man then it shouldn't matter. You can't stop yourself from falling in love with someone. You just do.
ReplyDelete1... In my opinion, i don't think in a relationship people can withstand very serious changes. Yes you can love someone for a very long time. But just because you love them doesn't mean your going to support everything they want to do with their lives. In this case the men transforming himself to a woman. In my opinion i wouldn't support that and i wouldn't be able to live with someone that decides to change. Even if i still love that person.
ReplyDelete2... In the movie it shows that to love one another you don't have to have sex to express how you feel to the other. In the movie Irma goes to someone else for sexual pleasure but it doesn't fulfill her because sex is meant to show how you feel towards someone. But in Roy and Irma's situation it doesn't matter because they are older and it's not so important in their lives, and they also found a way to show how much they care about each other in different ways.
3... To me it was interesting how even though the extreme changes that was going to happen in everyone's life, they were still going to be together like a normal happy family. They were still going to love each other like nothing ever happened.
1. After you have been with someone for so long you start to adapt to the different changes in your life. I believe romantic love can withstand profound changes in personal qualities because you love a person for how they make you feel and not based on one's appearances. If you truly love someone then you accept them for who they are. As others have said in their comments, Roy and Irma do share an Agape love and it shows that they are really understanding, dedicated and loving towards each other.
ReplyDelete2. Love was put first in the movie and sex was not really emphasized on because it wasn't necessary. Sex was just used as a form of pleasure in the movie in my opinion. The love between the couple was more outstanding than anything else. Love and Sex both created different feelings but they relate to one another.
3. "It's the relationship itself that gives you reason for love. The person's qualities give you reason to cultivate the relationship, but it's the value in the relationship that gives you reason to seek out and appreciate those qualities."
-An Lai
1. I think romantic love can withstand profound personal qualities. Even in "normal" relationships, both the man and the woman age and don't look the same as they did at the commencement of the relationship. If romantic love was based off looks, there would be a tremendous amount of single elders. However, in romantic love your love is deeper than meets the eye. Amongst other things, it is about experiences you share, time you spend together and the support you give one another. In the movie, when the husband decided to change sex, I admit, the change was more extreme that I would have ever imagined, but, the claim still stands romantic love lives beyond looks.
ReplyDelete2. As implied in the movie, sex seems to become less frequent as one ages.In its infrequencies, there is still a desire that spurs every once and a while. This symbol of love is important but does not, by any means, complete romantic love. By the husband told the wife that it was okay if she had an affair explicitly demonstrates the importance of the act of sex. Further it demonstrates the romantic love the husband had for the wife to excuse her from her vows so that her needs can be addressed. It is nearly a pleasurable act that is most enjoyed with someone who shares romanic love.
3. I found the displays of philia love in the movie was extremely interesting. The dynamic between the daughter and the dad got stronger with the dad's transformation. The son seemed to be extremely uncomfortable with it. It seemed as though he felt betrayed and was uncertain of his place now that his dad had decided that womanhood best suited him. Traditionally, there is an order to how a family operates. That order was disturbed when the dad transformed into a woman. Who was suppose to play the traditional role of the "man of the house"? Should that role be taken away from the father? He is still the father but he is in a woman's body. In the end, the structure of the family was untampered. The son knew who his father was and despite his decisions, this place would remain the same.
by Naprisha Brown Ryan
Thanks all - great comments.
ReplyDeleteI notice several of you applying the idea of agape to erotic love - that is, you seem to question the idea that there are clean dividing lines between types of love, and are putting forward the idea that, at least in long term relationships, this kind of creative, understanding, redemptive forgiveness comes to be at least as important as the more overt romance we think of in eros. I'd love to see people elaborate more on this, as it's an interesting idea.
In response to Yolanda:
ReplyDelete1. If it is "real love" will a person leave because a specific quality is gone? If it is "true love" won't each partner learn to love beyond that favored quality? Initial love may be spurred because of a specific quality but people learn to love beyond what they see and what they know based on first appearances. If someone leaves their supposed "love one" over a phenotype, that is not love at all but merely a strong feeling, sense of convenience or pure lie.
2. I agree with you. Irma and Roy had love beyond sex and their physical qualities, outweighed those changes. But it is interesting to examine why Irma had to go through with the affair? She had all the love she needed with Roy, right? Did she just want to feel comforted or feel a man's body aside her?
3. Irma was indeed a great friend to Roy. She stuck by him even when he was outcasted by his community, his church and everything he had known. To stand up against everything for someone else shows a tremendous amount of love. A love that is like agape. A love that seeks no return.
by Naprisha Brown Ryan
1. I do believe that romantic love can withstand quite profound changes in personal qualities. The reason I believe this, is because you love someone not just based upon their personal qualities. You love someone based on how complete they make you feel, how much you have accomplished together, and the happiness you receive by being by each other’s side. Both of you can have infinite qualities at the start and lose many of those by the end, but for Roy and Irma 25 years of completeness, accomplishments, and happiness overcomes that loss of a personal quality indefinitely.
ReplyDelete2. I believe in the beginning Irma felt that sex was an important part between the relationship of Roy and her. She felt that if Roy was to turn into a woman, loving would not be the same. Surely, loving another woman would be wrong even to the eyes of the whole town, but that shouldn’t be the whole reason for wanting to leave Roy. Irma didn’t fall in love with Roy because of sex; she fell in love with him because of the happiness they feel for each other.
3. Love has no boundaries; it is limitless to those of true love. It can fill any gap of loneliness in our hearts, but can equally hurt at times. In the end love is love and you’ll do whatever it takes to keep that.
1)I do believe that romantic love can withstand quite profound changes in personal qualities.If its true love i think you can still love them if you were in the position of roy and irma. It just might be a different kind of love like connection and the feeling of being safe in their arms.As long as this person makes you feel complete thats all you need.
ReplyDelete2)I belive sex is an important thing in a relationship because this is when 2 people connect in a deeper way.And i think that irma had the affair because she felt like she was going to lose that connection with roy and needed that comfort of having sex with a man.
3)LOVE is strong it can withstand many things. Love was the only thing that kept irma with roy and that was real hard for irma to do
1. I agree with the movie, romantic love can most definitely withstand profound changes in personal qulities. I believe that love in unconditionl therefor it should not change if the people, or circumstances do. Although it must be extremely hard to come to terms with a change in personal qualities if it is "real love" you'll come to terms with it and eventually accpet it, like Irma did.
ReplyDelete2. Sex is not EXTREMELY important in a relationships but it does bring people closer together. Love and sex had two completely different roles that played out more than normal.(atleast to me it did) Irma had an affair to cope with the fact that her husband was going to lose his manly hood. After the affair I believe she realized that no matter what his sex is, or going to be, her love meant more than a sexual connection.
3. I liked how the movie touched so much on how real love is constantly challenged. How his family had to deal with him and how the love they had for hi acturally grew becuase of what was going through. All the types of love really played out perfectly in this movie.
1.I believe love can absolutely withstand profound changes in personal qualities. In the movie, Irma continued to love Roy with all her heart because he was still Roy. She did struggle at first but of course being put in that situation it's difficult in the beginning. But in the end they both were deeply in love and would stand by one another no mattter what. That's what makes it unconditional love.
ReplyDelete2.In the movie the relationship between love and sex was focused morely onhow irma felt. When irma realized her husband didnt want to have sex anymore i think she felt like she was unwanted so she had the affair. But once she realized sex wasn't KEY in their relationship she knew just what their love truely meant.
3.I personally thought the movie was a good movie. The situation gave the viewers BOTH points of view, irma's and roy's. You could feel the pain irma and roy felt. It shows just what strains love can go thought to become stronger.
In response to TriniHuerta..
ReplyDeleteI do believe that true love can withstand hard changes. A good example would be if a woman were to marry a very wealthy man (not for his money of course) but for his love. If he were to suddenly go broke and she truly loved him it would be wrong to just leave him becuase of his struggles and changes. True love can withstand hardships. It just depends how they handle them, and if they're willing to work through them.
I pretty much agree with everyone about how love can withstand many things if the relationship is that good...but then again I can understand how others may disagree with the idea because no one person is alike.It takes a lot to withstand such a situation like Irma's and Roy's. I also agree with a lot of the things that were said about the sexual aspect of the relationship. Like how it's secondary.
ReplyDelete1. I think that romantic love can withstand quite profound changes in personal qualities if that love is a genuine one. To truly love someone in a romatic way is to love them for who they are no matter what changes that may happen to them mentally or physically.
ReplyDelete2. i think that realtionship between love and sex as implied in the movie are totally seperate. sex is a way to express ones love for another person but does not deterimine wether or not you actually love that person, which i feel the movie was trying to express. the love that roy had for his wife went beyond just his physical attraction to her. though he may hve felt like a woman on the inside and chose to manifest that feeling his love for his wife was still strong enough that he could still express that towards her in a physical manner.
3. what i found interesting about the concept of love in this movie is that it was very raw. for me it was a true depcition of what uncoditional love really is. i feel that society today has really forgotten how hard it is to love someone. see to hate someone is very easy because you only need one reason to not like a person, but to love someone takes strenght and courage because to give that love up is far more difficult then people tend to realize.
in response to what dustin celi said, i agree that love is limitless and has no boundries that what makes it so powerful. it has the ablity to serpass hate, fear, anger and joy yet it can make you feel all of these things when you truly embrace it.
From Michael Grubb
ReplyDeleteIn response to Nattybabii510 #1
I disagree with the statement that "true love can take on any obstical". Most who love their partner would be unwilling to stay in a relationship if they found out that their partner was molesting their children or was an unrepentant murdered, how about and actively using drug addict the list could go on and will vary from person to person. I and most others have base line expectations that need to be met for that love to endure.
In response to Yolonda #3
I agree that Irmas love is an example of agape. To love the person not the act.
In response to TriniHuerta #1
I agree with the last part of your statement that "I wouldn't support that and I wouldn't be able to live with someone that decides to change"(implied sex change). I too would not be willing to do so. I am sure most would agree with us if this actually happend to them.
In response to Professor Boyle
Yes I do believe that most romantic relationships do shift more from a place of Eros to a place of Agape as time goes by. This makes sense as time goes by and peoples love for each other grows to a deeper place. If you already care for someone very much the only place for that relationship to grow is in an Agape type way. I see this with many of the old couples that I know.
In response to DustinCeli #1
I disagree with the statement "you love someone based on how complete they make you feel, How much you have accomplished together, and the happiness you receive by being by each others side". None of those three points ring true for me at all.
In response to Ntgee #1
I disagree with the statement "If it is "real love" you'll come to terms with it and eventually accept it like Irma did." Real love for me does not mean that I have to accept everything that my partner does. If my partner were to do something that I am morally opposed to I am not required to accept that. Or I may accept it by ending the relationship. I do not believe that I am required to stay in a relationship regardless. Their are certain behaviors that each and everyone of us would find unacceptable if our partner were doing those behaviors. This list changes depending upon who the person is.
Michael Grubb
In response to TriniHuerta:
ReplyDeletei respect your opinion but i think that not everyone loves the same. not everyone can truly love unconditionally but it is possible. when you fall in love with some one you don't fall in love with their physical appearance or their gender. you fall in love with the individual for how they make you feel and the bond you share with one another. some people don't love as deeply as others do, they simply don't have the capacity to do so or they simply are afraid to give so much of themselves. You are initially attracted to the individual for their physical appearance and their gender but that's not what touches your heart. I'm not saying that everyone would be able to handle the circumstance or that enough individuals would be able to put aside their pride and feelings to actually stand by their partner but it isn't fair to say it's unrealistic...it's simply not very likely. With each relationship and each individual in the relationship the reaction and support would very depending on strength as a couple and strength as a person.
In response to most everyone's response about sex...it isn't that sex isn't as important as you get older. it's simply that with age the drive can slow down with the individual. Sex isn't necessarily all that important when couples are young it's more that the urges are stronger. Call me conservative or old school but I feel that sex should be an expression of 2 individuals love for one another and that it has been abused and has lost it's value to a lot of people who have it in a recreational manner with partners whom they don't necessarily love but seem to fill that void in their life at that particular moment. Although i will say i was a little let down at the end of the movie i thought roy was going to make love to irma one last time since he would no longer be able to do so in the same way. It would have been romantic...back to being older and not having sex. I think that with age couples also learn to appreciate other methods of quality time together and still complete each other physically by giving affection in other ways. I believe that with time you learn to appreciate and enjoy the quality time itself with your loved one. I also think its difficult for people who felt they haven't necessarily been in love (true love, not that 3 month long relationship they had in 8th grade)to actually know what it's like and to believe that a relationship could withstand so many difficult situations where one if not both individuals would have to put themselves aside in order to be there for their partner and be selfless in a huge way.
I respect everyone's opinion in this discussion. And I do follow the idea that love can withstand life's struggles. Now most people fall in love because the traits their partner has or how that special someone makes them feel. But in my personal opinion if my wife wanted to become a man with the full operation and everything. I hardly think i would be able to stand that. You can argue that Roy was still Roy and that he hadn't changed, but as we clearly saw in the movie he started to do things differently. Ex. When he talked to his father, he neglected ever being a man saying the father never had any sons.
ReplyDeleteI've always believed that if you really love someone then you will do things that you don't really like doing, but you do it out of love for that person. but if that person starts to hurt you as a result of their actions, then how can you love someone that causes you constant pain? and isn't the same person they used to be?
Hey everybody! Itttts NOAH!
ReplyDelete1 True love can withstandall types of changes. Changes in personality is no exception, as relationships and individuals grow and change. Love will continue to be unconditional no matter what. AS people grow older they change physically and mentally. In the movies case, the husband changed, and although it was hard his wife continued to love him regardless.
2 The movie showed that sex is not neccesary to love, but is a human want. His wife loved him, but she wanted some sex to go with it. It is a human want and desire, for some a need, but it isnt neccesary when it comes to love.
3 No matter what his wife lkoved him. Love can withstand trmendous rifts. Her love is unconditional, and as her husband "grew" her love matured.
I agree with Arianne on the depiction of true love #3...In todays world, divorce is as common as marriage. True love has been replaced with true lust. The strength required to love someone is tremendous, and many people loose strength after a while.
ReplyDeleteEveryone pretty much hit the nail on the head, Love is strong, and true love is stronger than any personality change or mental change. In this case, sexual change...(i guess you could call it that)
In Response to Amie Rose question 1 & 2:
ReplyDelete1.) I agree because I believe that love CAN withstand many challenges a couple might face. Being in that type of situation would put strain on any relationship, but they deeply loved eachother and shared a bond and friendship. They had the kind of relationship where they would rather accept eachother's flaws and remain a part of eachothers life. Walking away was not an option according to Irma, I.E. when she told the pastor she couldn't walk away because Roy was her heart.
2.)I believe Irma probably realized sex wasnt key in their relationship early on I.E. when they were meeting with the Pastor in the beginning of the film and they said it had been awhile since they had been intimate. Sex was not the foundation of their relationship. They simply deeply loved and cared for eachother and were eachothers moral support. When everyone else looked down on Roy, Irma was his support. But you could tell even when Irma kissed the other man and had an affair, she didnt feel right because she wasnt being intimate with Roy, the only man she loved.Obviously sex was not an important factor in their relationship as Roy stated they only had sex in the past for reproduction, and Irma continued to stay with Roy in a relationship lacking physical intimacy.
1. I agree that love can withstand profound changes. When you love a person, you accept them for who they are and what they are, regardless of any dramatic changes they may undergo in the future because no matter what, they will always be the same individual you fell in love with in the beginning. There shouldn't be an excuse to why one should look at their beloved differently just because something changed about them. What lovers have are sacred, and if they are truly sincere about their relationship, they will not allow any obstacle to get in between their happiness.
ReplyDelete2. In the movie, the wife wasn't concerned about the sexual part of their relationship because deep inside, she knew that she found pleasure from their love for each other. I believe that love can exist whether sex is or is not present.
3. The movie provided a good example of a very complicated relationship that worked out in the end because of true love. It is very rare to see people actually stay together and try working things out after an unfortunate change; so this movie somewhat proved me that it's still possible to accept another despite their imperfections and flaws.
- Katrina Masangkay